Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to Treasure Mountain, the podcast that inspires and guides people to find the treasure within human experience. I'm your host. Sol hannah One of the most impactful traditions of Buddhism in the modern world is one that isn't very good at publicity, but it is very dedicated to practice. Despite its strict adherence to the principles of monastic discipline and the principles of Buddhist six, like, for instance, never selling the teachings, it has gained a huge grassroots following in many Western countries where people are drawn to its plain, simple honesty and dedication to the original principles set out by the Buddha himself. I'm referring to the Thai forest tradition. And to help us understand the origins and practices of the Thai forest tradition, I have as our guest Stephen Taylor, who at the age of 19 left his home in the U K to travel to Thailand to ordain as a biku in 1972.
This was a time in which the Thai forest tradition was in full bloom and the first Westerners were travelling to Thailand to practice and even ordain. Stephen ordained it what for wantiware and for a while Prakantipalo was one of his mentors. Stephen went on to have many great teachers, including the renowned meditation master Arjun Tet. He's still dedicated to the Thai forest tradition and practicing to this day. And he has translated several Dharma books from Thai to English. For the benefit of the community, he's kindly joined us on the Treasure Mountain podcast to offer his knowledge and insights into this tradition that continues to grow in popularity to this day. So join us as we seek for a treasure within.
[00:02:04] Speaker B: Sam.
[00:02:33] Speaker A: Welcome to Treasure Mountain. Stephen, how are you today?
[00:02:37] Speaker B: Thanks for having me, Sol. Yes, very good. Given that every day is dukka.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: Never a true word, but I'm really pleased that you've joined us. I've kind of had some contact with you a little bit in the past, but I've heard lots about you and I'm really pleased that you come to join us to share your experience and knowledge today. Look, our first question today is kind of a bit of a big one. I wanted to just give some context and say that when we here in the west, we think of Thailand, we often think of it as being a devoutly Buddhist country. However, if we go back 100 and 5200 years, there were a lot of problems with the way Buddhism was being practiced. Often the monastic discipline wasn't being followed very rigorously. There was lots of giving horoscopes and Lucky charms and et cetera.
And then a Renaissance movement got underway and it started with a crown prince who became a monk and sought to get the sangha back to basics. Could you give us a bit of background as to what was going on in Thai Buddhism from about the late 19th century?
[00:03:55] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. Look, back then in Thailand, there was basically one sect which was called the Mahanikai sect or the greater sect, basically.
And you're right, they'd fallen into really the practice of the vinaya had really almost passed away. There were reports of monks who had mistresses, monks who would eat all day long, so they'd eat after midday, they'd handle money and they'd have possessions, they'd own plots of land and things like that, all which are against the vinaya. And the real the real problem with that was that in the vinaya, when a monk ordains there are certain rules which have to be observed and that also one of those rules is there has to be a quorum of Bikus, a quorum of monks that are present at the time. And they have to sit within atapasa, they have to sit within a forearm's length of each other during a particular part of the ceremony.
And also the ceremony has to be done within on what you could, I guess, consider consecrated ground.
Now, the problem with that is that if one of those monks that is part of the quorum during the time of ordination is himself not a monk, because he's committed something like parajika, which is one of the four defeats for a monk. So, for example, he's had sexual intercourse.
So a monk who's had a wife, got a wife or a mistress clearly would fall into that sort of category.
What that means is that's automatic excommunication from the monkhood, regardless of whether the monk or the person, stays with his head shaved and wears orange robes.
From a sangha perspective, from the order of monks perspective, that particular person is no longer a monk.
So when that monk then, or when that person then sits in on the ordination of another person, that ordination becomes invalid because the quorum is corrupt.
And then the person who thought that he was a monk isn't actually a monk, and then he goes and sits in on another ordination of someone else. And because he's not ordained properly, then the ordination of the third person is not valid either. So you end up with a lot of men wearing saffron, shaving their heads, who aren't actually ordained according to the principles of the vinaya. And so effectively, you're getting people who are taking arms from laypeople and taking gifts from laypeople who aren't entitled to them even under the Thai law at the time.
So this was a real problem. And King Mongoot, well, he became King Monkut famous through the King and I movie, which is banned in Thailand because it's so inaccurate. Anyway, before he became before he became king, he did ordain he was ordained, I can't remember how long now, but 20 years or something like that.
And he saw that this kind of practice just wasn't what he wanted for his own practice. So he decided that he would go and seek ordination from monks in Sri Lanka. And he not only took ordination there, but he learnt all about how to make ground consecrated ground to set up what we call a SEMA, which is the area in a monastery set aside for doing religious practices like ordinations.
And then he went to ordain also with the Mon, because the Mon culture is arguably the first Buddhist culture in Southeast Asia from which the Burmese Buddhist tradition comes and from which the Thai tradition comes.
So he reordained with them. So he had several ordinations just to try and make sure that at least one of them was accurate and according to the Vinaya. And then he came back to Thailand and he established the Damayuta Nikaya, which was the reforming sect that with the idea that ordinations would be pure, that the monks would practice the Vinaya, the rules of training, keep their precepts. And then he could then be fairly confident that those monks that were ordained were truly ordained and part of the Sangha. And that set the Damyutanikaya apart from the Mahanikaya. And that sort of tradition still continues to today.
[00:09:48] Speaker A: So that reform movement really kind of was like tidying up the behavior and training of the Sangha. And I guess in one sense it was a rededication to the original principles of the Vinya. However, there were still, I believe, a lot of people in Thailand who kind of believed that getting enlightened wasn't really even possible.
What changed all.
[00:10:20] Speaker B: Mean, obviously I wasn't around at the time, but the tradition has it that back then that most Thai people didn't really believe that full enlightenment was possible anymore. And that's largely because the practice of the monks was so bad.
The practices that some of the monks had were just so far off where they should be that it led to laypeople in particular being having no confidence in the monks. And of course, the monks lifestyle is supposed to be one of a recluse, so that you have little distractions from the practice. But of course, if you're living a life like a householder, but you just happen to be wearing saffron, then it doesn't inspire confidence that you're going to attain enlightenment.
So when the Dammyut was established, one of the early followers of the Dammiut was a teacher called Ajansao and he is credited with starting what became the Thai forest tradition. But also what he's really credited with was starting the practice of the jutanga, which are the ascetic practices, which also means that he set up the tradition, the ancient tradition of monks wandering around the forest, going from village to village and seeking arms and practicing solitude, going to the foot of a tree, going into caves.
When the Buddha passed on ordination to the monks, because in the beginning he used to do all the ordinations and set up the tradition and the process. One of the things in the ordination procedure, it tells the newly ordained monk to go and live at the foot of a tree, rakamula Say in Asalan, go and live out in the country. Go and live and seek solitude. And so Ajan Sao was credited with starting that tradition again. And then his follower, Ajan Man, who's well known in the Thai forest tradition, went with him and started to learn the tradition. And of course, they were very strict in their practice. They would only eat one meal a day. They would always eat before noon. They would only eat food that went into their bowl, so they wouldn't eat food that came afterwards.
And there were a whole range of other practices which set them apart, even from the study monks who were living in the city where most of the dummy monks were located in cities and towns. But he started ajan Sao and Ajan Man together started the forest tradition, which was one which was a little bit more.
[00:13:48] Speaker A: Right, right. So in one sense, you could say that Prince Monkut, when he was a monk, kind of got the sangha reestablished in the vineyard. And then Ajan Sao and perhaps also Ajan Man were looking at, well, how did the Buddha practice and what did the Buddha praise and say that monks should do? And of course, as you pointed out, they say it again and again and know there are these roots of trees and so forth. So in one sense, you'd say that this was like getting back to the roots of what Buddhism was supposed to be about.
[00:14:23] Speaker B: That's absolutely correct.
It was also, of course, at a time which was fairly turbulent politically as well, because it was a time between two world wars. And in fact, Ajan Mun was walking through the forests practicing. When the Japanese invaded Thailand, there was a lot of social upheaval that was going on during that time as well.
And so I guess people were also looking for inspiration. And when lay people saw the way that Ajan Man practiced, he became quite popular and his name started to become quite famous. And so he started to attract a range of other monks who wanted to practice strict vinaya and also to practice meditation. And Ajan Man was reputed to be an arahant, an enlightened being. And he had quite a large following over quite a number of years.
And some of his early teachers sorry, some of his early pupils were Ajanfan Ajantet. And then towards the end of his life, he had monks like Ajan Mahabua and Ajan Wan, who were much younger than Ajan fan Ajantet. But there are a wide range of others.
Lumpu Wan, Ajan Kao, they were all followers of Ajan Man, and many of those were still alive when I was in Thailand. So I had the good fortune to be able to meet them because I could speak Thai, I had the good fortune of being able to talk to them, too. So that was quite inspiring in its own right.
[00:16:35] Speaker A: And I'm looking forward to asking you about your personal experiences in a short time. But I did want to just follow up and ask about the tradition. I mean, I should point out that Ajan man isn't like trying to set up something special or different. It comes to be identified as the typhoid tradition. But actually what he's trying to do is practice as best he knows how according to the vineyard, according to what's in the suttas and I guess also his own experience. You've given us some ideas about how this tradition is distinctive particularly in its strict adherence to vinya. Did you want to add anything else about what can we identify in terms of practices and say well, that's characteristics of the Thai forest tradition?
[00:17:28] Speaker B: Well, Thai forest tradition is very much focused on developing one's own chitta, developing one's own self first, if you can use that word loosely.
So it's really all about practicing, it's really all about Silas, Amadi and banya. It's really all about setting up a firm foundation of being generous, of practicing morality and having that firmly and solidly established so that you can build on that by developing concentration, by developing your meditation and then developing wisdom on top of that. So it's there for you want to, I guess, develop personally before you then go on and then help others to tread the path. So it's all about practicing, building internally, doing internal, building one's mind, building goodness and forsaking all those things which are the opposite of goodness.
And the Thai forest tradition is very much about seeing the dhamma within one's own being. It's not so much about reading about dhamma, it's not so much about study. It doesn't say don't study but after you've learned the basics. The real Thai forest tradition is all about practicing meditation. It's all about being reclusive, going, retiring to quiet places, having gaia wiweka, which is basically being in a quiet place and chitta, weweka having calmness of mind, having your mind in a reclusive state if you like, one that's withdrawn from the senses, one that doesn't go out seeking things in the world, seeking sensual pleasure. This is really the core of the practice with a view to becoming enlightened. And that's really where the Thai teachers came from.
They teach a way which goes all the it follows the tradition right the way back, as you pointed out, right the way back to the time of the Buddha. So they're really trying to just incorporate in today's world the same practices that were there at the time of the Lord Buddha.
[00:20:17] Speaker A: I wanted to ask how did the Sangha hierarchy react to these intrepid and non conformist monks who assured living in a monastery or temple and instead sought the wild jungles or remote parts of Thailand, at least for a part of the year, where they would go on tudong, which is like walking around the country having no fixed abode?
Today, of course, the teachers that you've mentioned are revered in Thailand. But at the time how were these monks considered by the Sangha hierarchy in Thailand?
[00:20:54] Speaker B: Well, if you look at the original Sangha hierarchy at the time, one of the I mean, there was really then only the Mahanikai, so this reforming sect wasn't very well received.
The downside for the Mahanikai monks was that it was the king or the prince, a member of the royal family who was highly revered, who was starting this up. So there's hardly anything that they could really say about it. And so the Dhammyut had its own hierarchy and the Mahanikai had its own hierarchy and later on they would come to coalesce and form a Sangha council.
But in the early days it was the Thai forest region set up by Ajan Man and sorry, by Ajan Sao and Ajan Man.
Even some of the study monks in the city that were Damiyut didn't always react too well to them because they were seen as being a little bit more ascetic and a little bit more dedicated than some of the monks who wanted to study and lived in cities and towns and cities.
But, yeah, some of the monks from the opposite sect, from the Mahanikai, some of those had quite severe adverse reactions to the monks turning up.
I recall stories told to me by Ajante who was asked by the then Sangharaja who'd become Dammyut in those days, that's back in the Sangharaja asked Ajantet to go down south, down around the areas around Phuket because the Sankaraja heard that there were some monks not practicing well and the laypeople were getting quite despondent. And so he said, would you go down there and show them how monks should practice? So Telechantet set off with just a couple of monks, I think at a novice initially. And when he started to establish a small monastery down in the south, he had all sorts of things happen.
Monks from the opposite sect, from the Mahanikai would line the streets and throw stones at him when he was going on arms round in the morning. They tried to persuade laypeople not to give the Dammayut monks food.
They set fire to his kuti.
He wasn't incredible at the time, but they poisoned his food.
[00:24:13] Speaker A: Unbelievable.
[00:24:15] Speaker B: Yeah, because he showed them up because of the strict practice that he had, that they were there with their women friends and they were going out at nighttime, drinking and smoking and having a good time. And then when laypeople saw how monks should practice, they of course started to fall in behind Ajantet. And fortunately for ajantet at that time, because phuket was a very wealthy province because of mining, there were some workers come down from the northeast, and talachantet was from the northeast, and so he had a small group of laypeople who weren't tainted by the same bad practice, if you like, that had been encouraged by the local residents. And eventually he calmed the situation down and got laypeople supporting him. And he was quite a diplomat, brought the Mahanikai monks eventually online, if you like, or in line.
And yeah, it was a difficult time for two or three years, but eventually he won through. But does that give you some indication as to how those forest monks were treated in some of the places that they went?
[00:25:54] Speaker A: Yeah, and I get the impression it wasn't so much the Sangha hierarchy, but more that certain groups of monks who weren't behaving themselves very well felt threatened by this reform movement.
But I also wanted to ask you, like, a lot of the time the monks of the forest tradition were going to remote or rural areas.
How were they received by the regular people through that early period from the through to the 70s?
[00:26:30] Speaker B: Yeah, because they didn't often stay very long.
They would turn up to a small village for a day or two and find somewhere to stay at the foot of a tree, under their umbrella, under the mosquito net, because they were monks. And Thailand people have always been generous by nature.
They would look after them. But the problem became exacerbated, if you like, when monks decided to stale for the rainy season. For example, when monks can't travel around, they have to spend three months in a monastery in a more secure dwelling. So that's when things started to become a little bit more difficult and also with allocation of land and money.
But of course, that started to be sorted out centrally through things like the Sangha Council, which became a combination of Mahanikai and Damyut monks. And now the tradition is that the Sankaraja alternates between the two Nikayas. So you have Mahanikai Sankaraja for a while. When that Sankaraja dies, the next me is Damiyut and then followed by Mahanikai. And so the two have come to coexist, but it's not always been a comfortable coexistence. For example, even when I was ordained, never mind times before, if a Mahanikai monk came to stay in a Dammy UT monastery, he would have to sit at the end of the line of monks, no matter how senior he was. He could have 50 pants are, and he'd still have to sit at the end of the line because he would not be treated as if he was a monk.
The dummy Ute monks always erred on the side of caution, so that monk would never be allowed to participate in any ceremonies. And generally speaking, there was still some friction when I was there in the 70s.
Perhaps it's still there today to some extent.
But yes, there's probably a little bit more commonality now between those in the forest tradition, like the followers of Ajan Cha, who was Mahanikai, and he was one of the only Mahanikai followers of Ajan Mun. And the story is that he went to Ajan Man and know, I'm happy to disrobe and reordain as a Dammayut monk like the rest of your followers, if you want me to. And Ajan Man said no, I want somebody in the Mahanikai tradition who also follows my teachings. And so he allowed Ajancha to remain as a Mahanikai monk.
[00:29:38] Speaker A: But.
[00:29:41] Speaker B: Even the followers of Ajancha would have difficulty, in my day, staying in a Dammiyut monastery. But now, probably there's a closer affinity between Ajan Cha's group and the Thai forest tradition of the Dammayut than there is between the Dammiute from the city and the Damma Ute from the forest.
[00:30:01] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a really interesting story, I think. And I think it kind of points out that, yes, it was about strict adherence to the Vinya in the Dharma Yut style, but it was more than that.
Thai forest tradition was about a way of life, a practice, a dedication.
And I've always wondered about that. Obviously, I don't know the mind of Arjun Man, but the fact that he made those exceptions at all, like with Arjun Cha, kind of speaks to, like, there's something else that's important about what he was trying to teach. That's my impression, yeah.
[00:30:40] Speaker B: It's all about learning about one's being. It's all about learning about body and mind.
And if you practice purely and truly, then some of the other things, I guess, become a little bit less significant.
[00:31:00] Speaker A: Well put. Look, I did want to ask you about your own personal experience to see if that can really highlight what the Typhorist tradition was about in perhaps a little bit more of not so much a historical sense, but in a lived experience.
So you ordained as a biku, a Buddhist monk in the 1970s. What led you to become a biku in Thailand in the first place?
[00:31:27] Speaker B: Well, I've been a Buddhist since I was 16. I kept five precepts since that time.
And I became interested in Buddhism because I studied other religions as well. There was something driving me. I was looking for something for some meaning in life, if you like. And I read about Islam, I read about Judaism, obviously lived in a Christian country, so was taught Christianity at school. But none of those things seem to seem to make sense. There seemed to be something lacking.
And when I came across Buddhism, I read the Dhamma for the first time. Something just clicked. It just became so obvious that birth, old age, sickness and death, they're the only things that are certain in life, and they're all suffering.
It was just rang a chord with me and the Four Noble Truths.
If everything is suffering, there must be a cause of suffering. And if you eliminate the cause, then you eliminate the result. And if there's a path of doing it, and the path looked great, you look at it to be a virtuous person.
If you aspire to have a good heart yourself, and you look at the Eightfold Path, you can't fault it.
For those who are looking, it just stands out so boldly. So I went to the local Buddhist society, and there I met a woman, Jane Brown, who had been to Thailand several times because she had a Western teacher some years prior, who was Ajan Panyaweto, who stayed with Talanchan Mahabhua. And so she said, when I decided that I wanted to ordain she said, well, why don't you go to Thailand and go and stay with Ajan Banyawato at Tanchan Mahabua's Monastery? So that was originally my intention. And Jane wrote letters and sort of got me some introductions and then I went to London to meet some of the Sri Lankan monks that were there, just to get some idea as to what was involved. And I also met in 1971, Tankantipalo, who was back in the UK at that time because he'd had poor health and he was back recuperating, and he just happened to be staying with some friend of Jane's and myself. And Don Casson, who was the first president of the WA Buddhist Society, was the foundation, or the founding president, if you like, he was there as well. So that was the first time I met Don in 1971. And we went down to Somerset to stay with County Palo there for a weekend, and that's where he told me to go and ordain in what born, and I guess the rest was then history. I flew out to Thailand on a one way ticket and because I was only 19, I couldn't ordain immediately as a monk. So I ordained as a novice and stayed as a novice and ordained just before the start of the Pansar in July of 1972, attained as a full biku. And then at the time, I had nowhere to stay because I was determined not to stay at Watbawan, because that was not going to be conducive to anything by way of personal development, because it was just so noisy, a typical city monastery.
And as it turns out, another English monk, Tandon, he, had some sympathy for me, a bit of compassion, and he said, if you want to come with me, you can stay with Ajang Fun.
So just days before the start of Pansar, we left Bangkok and I went to stay at Tum Kam with Ajan Fun, who was in residence there, because Ajan Fun at that time had two monasteries, one on the flats and one in the mountains. And I went up to stay with him in the mountains and spent one Panzar there with Ajan Fun.
And that was a really good experience.
It was tucked away on top of a mountain with forest everywhere you looked, and it allowed me to practice, allowed me sit, walk, sit and walk and sit and walk. And I couldn't speak Thai at the time, but Tendon did some translating and, yeah, I then went to Ajan Ben and then later on to Ajan Ted.
[00:37:08] Speaker A: So, I mean, this is a pretty huge transformation because in the 1970s, in the west and in the UK, there weren't really very many budhists at all. And to become a Buddhist was seen is a bit weird. And you've not just done that, you've flown out to Thailand and become Abiku and taken on all the vineyard. So this is a big culture shock.
What was your memory of that first year with Ajan Fun? Have you got anything that stands out in your mind? Was it a real struggle, like adapting, like learning the language, keeping the linear, or what was your experience?
[00:37:52] Speaker B: For me it was just like coming home.
It just felt so natural. Just everything just seemed to fit in place.
It was difficult because I didn't speak the language immediately, but the ties were quite helpful.
And yeah, it was just that's probably the best way to describe it's, just like coming home. And Telechan Fun was wonderful, so I could talk to him through Ten dong, which was okay. It wasn't as satisfactory as it might have been, but nevertheless, tananchan fun.
His personality was such that you just felt warmth. He just radiated meta. He was just an amazing human being and it was just a wonderful experience.
[00:39:05] Speaker A: I really want to ask that if you could I mean, you've started to answer my next question, which is to kind of relate. What were some of those salient memories of being with, like, Ajan Van, Ajan Ban and Ajantet, these are amazing people to be around.
For those of us who never got to meet them, can you give us a summary of what was it like or maybe a salient memory of what was like being with them?
[00:39:36] Speaker B: When I turned 21, on my 21st birthday, I was staying at Watdoidamajidi with Ajan Ben and I went down to the because in the morning, as soon as it was dawn, we were up before dawn. And at dawn we would go down to the meeting hall where we ate our meal, and we would clean that up, polish the floor and sweep and get Ajan's things ready. And we would get ourselves prepared for going out on our arms round.
And on this particular day, my 21st birthday, and bear in mind I could speak some Thai. Then I turned up with my bowl and I was quite happy and jolly. And Tenajan said to me, what are you so happy about? And I said, well, today is my 21st birthday, and in the west, when you're 21, then you become a man, so you're no longer a boy, you're a man. And Tenachan Ben turned around to me and he said, are you enlightened yet?
And I looked at him a bit perplexed, and I said, no. So he said, well, what are you doing down here then? If you're a man, you should be sitting in meditation. You should be there practicing until you're enlightened. You shouldn't be coming down here to feed your face.
And then he turned around to the rest of the monks and he said, the Westerner Pratfarang in Thai pratfarang. Westerner chicken shit. He's chicken shit.
He's here. There's supposed to be a man and he's not enlightened. He comes down here to eat. There's nothing to him, he's chicken shit. So I said, right. Okay.
That day I did eat. I went on Bindabad, came back. And then I got a novice to help me set up a little place out, which was away from my dwelling, from my kuti, from my hut, and where I could hang my umbrella. I have mosquito net and it was just enough to sit and there was a place to walk. And I made a determination that I wasn't going to leave that place until I was enlightened. And so I sat there, walked, sat and walked, sat and walked, sat and walked right the way through the night. And then dawn came. I wasn't going down to the Salah, I wasn't going to go Bindabad if I hadn't become enlightened, I wasn't going to move from that spot. So I stayed there. And then I was just between sitting and walking and a novice came up and he said, oh, you've got to come down, because at that time I'd also been very sick.
I'd passed blood. I had 18 months of problems with my digestive tract. I'd passed blood. So I wasn't well and I'd lost a lot of weight. But anyway, I said to the novice, no, I'm not going. Telechan says, You've got to come. And I said, no, you tell Telejan that I'm staying here, I'm not enlightened and I'm not moving. So tell him no. And so the novice went off and I was just going to sit in meditation, just getting comfortable, and the novice comes back and he says, oh, Telechances, you've been passing blood. You can't not eat. You've got to eat. And I said, Are you sure that Chan says that I can come back? And he said, yeah, Telechan has made it clear that he's telling you he's ordering you to come back. So I said, all right, I'm only leaving because Tenachan is ordering me to come back. I'm not leaving of my own accord. And he said, yeah. Novice said, yeah, come back. And when I went back, quiet. Not a word. Not this Westerner's chicken shit, nothing. Just complete quiet. I just walked in, put my ball down and had the meal with the rest of the monks, but they were all quiet. It shut them all up.
Senate didn't say a word. Afterwards, I was I was no longer chicken shit.
[00:44:13] Speaker A: Yeah, right. That's amazing. Did you have any memories? I mean, it's wonderful to hear these stories. We don't really have time to hear them all, but do you have any memories of your time with.
[00:44:32] Speaker B: Came to he came to Australia, and when he came to Australia, I came with him as his interpreter.
And I'll share a personal story with you that I don't share with many people.
[00:44:52] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:44:55] Speaker B: We came to Perth. We went to melbourne, we went to Sydney. Telachanti wanted to see Pratmaha Samai as he was then. He's now Chowkun Samai at the temple in Ranwick. It hadn't been long established and Chanachante wanted to see that they had everything that they needed and just wanted to see how Buddhism was developing.
And we stayed there. And one evening when I was practicing in deep concentration, I had this vision appear to me. And it said that it was a vision of me, basically. And to cut a long story short, it basically said that over a hundred years ago, tenajayan Tet and I were brothers. We were both members of the royal family and Thai royal family, of which there were, umpteen, children because back then there were lots of lots. The Thai monarchs had lots of.
And basically what came through was that Tanacham was saying to me as my elder brother that I being him, I am the first one in that family that has become enlightened. And then he turns to me and he says to me, when are you going to be the second?
And so I went to Talajan and I told him exactly what had happened to me. And I asked him, is this true? Were we brothers in a life? And you're enlightened now and you're asking me when I'm going to become second? And he just smiled and didn't say anything.
Totally non committal because it wouldn't have been wrong for him to respond. But he wasn't particularly like that because if I'd have been a layperson, it would have been wrong for him to respond. But because I was a monk, he could said something but didn't.
Then when I was going into the kitchen the following morning because we were getting ready for a meal, tenajan was sitting down with a lay supporter there who'd come with us.
And he knew I was coming down.
And he said to the layperson, he said, you know, that Ten Stephen.
Wherever we go, he can always meditate I. And he knew I heard.
And there was absolutely no way that that person had any understanding what he was talking about. But he's just simply saying to me indirectly that what I'd said was right.
[00:48:10] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:48:16] Speaker B: He was just a wonderful teacher.
He knew the dharma inside out and back to front. He knew how to practice it. He'd read the Dharma as well. He could relate parli passages to the practice. He could answer any question that anyone might ask about dharma. He was just a wonderful human being and a wonderful teacher of dharma. And it sounds like in great detail.
[00:48:43] Speaker A: And it sounds like he had a great deal of sensitivity based on his meditation that he was able to read his students quite well and to offer the advice that they needed. Would that be true?
[00:48:54] Speaker B: I think that's absolutely spot on. Yeah.
[00:48:58] Speaker A: Thank you for sharing that story. Look, I have just a couple more questions that I want to ask and it's kind of more I've asked you so far to look backwards. I kind of want you to look based on your experience. Let's look forward a little bit because in recent decades Buddhism has moved into the west, including it's got hundreds of offshoots now of Thai forest tradition in terms of monasteries and so forth. However, really it is early days for Buddhism in the west and there's so much more that needs to be done for it to become well established. What do you think are some of the main strengths and weaknesses of Buddhism in the west at this time?
[00:49:46] Speaker B: I think one of the problems that you have with Buddhism in the west, because there isn't a Buddhist culture as such, is the lack of faith.
SATA is one of the five powers, one of the five bala. And I think it's lacking in the west because we're not brought up with it. And also faith has a different connotation because of exposure to Christianity in the west, where you have to have faith that there's a god. Faith in Buddhism, faith in Dhamma has a slightly different connotation because I always say that faith and sadhan banya are on the same continuum, that you have faith in the beginning, but as you practice and you learn more and you understand more and faith gets converted into knowledge and wisdom. And so in the end, the things which you had faith for, of faith about in the beginning, you now realize for yourself. So you see for yourself. So faith is replaced by knowledge, by wisdom. And that's a difference to faith in a God, which you never know whether it's true or not.
If you don't have that faith, though, it's then difficult to practice, because the other thing is that without faith, then it's difficult to reconcile the role of the Sangha because it's a triple gem. It's the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha. And so you have to have monks and lay people to support the monastic community. It's the monks who have a lifestyle which is more reclusive, who's more conducive to becoming enlightened. And so therefore, if they practice properly, then they can teach the laypeople. But if you don't have people who practice properly, if you don't have monks who do practice a more reclusive lifestyle, a less hindered lifestyle, then who's going to teach? You end up with a situation which I see frequently on the Internet, where you have the blind leading the blind, people who don't know what they're talking about, telling others, and only compounding misinformation or outright inconsistency or something's not factual, not true, that's then difficult. And where do you go to find what is right and what is wrong? What is the way to practice? Difficult in the west because you've got so many different people who will tell you where to practice and how to practice. So the problem really is therefore, how do you actually sort the wheat from the chaff in terms of what is real Buddhism and what is the best way to practice.
[00:53:17] Speaker A: That was one of the key features of the Thai forest tradition, is that they kept on emphasizing.
If you were a monk in the Thai forest tradition, the emphasis was practice. Don't worry about teaching, practice, practice, practice until you've got something, some personal insight that makes worthwhile you teaching. Because until that point, you could easily teach the wrong thing through not having clear understanding and personal insight.
And I think you've made a really important point in that without faith, you can't get started. You've got to have faith in a teacher who's keeping a good standard, but also you've got to have faith in the Dhamma, the teaching, and faith in your ability to get there. And I guess what you're saying with what's happening on the Internet is a lot of Buddhist teachers are just telling people what they want to hear rather than which is very convenient. But I guess the point of Thai forest tradition is that it's not about doing what's convenient. It's about doing what's worthwhile and what's going to lead to true liberation.
[00:54:27] Speaker B: See, for me personally, I would avoid any association with anyone who wants to charge for Dharma.
[00:54:40] Speaker A: No, that's a good point.
[00:54:42] Speaker B: Dharma should be free to whoever wants to listen to it, whoever wants to practice it. More importantly.
And it shouldn't be a matter of how much money you so all the books that I translate are all for free.
And there's always a sentence in the introduction which says that the books can't be sold because, like Tanacham Mahbul used to know, dharma is not to be traded like goods at a marketplace. It's there for the liberation of human beings. It's there to help people become free from suffering, and it shouldn't be charged for. So that would be my thing. Anyone who wants to charge for it, in my opinion, is not a true practitioner.
They might practice and they may meditate and they may do a lot of things, but if they can't see that Dhamma should be given away for nothing, then that doesn't sit well with me, because my whole tradition has been that Dhamma is for free.
[00:55:51] Speaker A: I guess going back to your previous point, I think as a teacher, you've got to have a lot of faith that when you give away your teaching and your time and your effort and your knowledge, you got to have a lot of faith that people are going to give and support you. So the whole basis of this tradition is it's faith, but also giving. Everything is given. And that's the thing that really struck me, is that everything is being given away, which is incredible. I've always been inspired by the generosity of people like yourself. You're giving your time to translate these teachings. You don't get paid for that. That's just everything. It really is priceless.
[00:56:43] Speaker B: Yeah. And so if a Westerner is looking for a way of practice, then they should really compare what they're looking for now with the way that the Buddha practiced in his day. I mean, he didn't charge for Dhamma.
[00:57:11] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:57:14] Speaker B: And he wandered from place to place. Even though he lived till he was 80 years of age, he still wandered around even when he was an elderly person, from village to village, town to town. And did he keep strict vinaya? Yes, of course he did. So did he have laypeople set up as teachers? Very rarely. Very few laypeople became enlightened, and those that did became ordained. So where were his main teachers? His main teachers, people like Sariputta and Morgalana, his right and left hand lieutenants, ordained. But Westerners tend to look for teachers that are all themselves laypeople.
And the monks. If you had a strong Sangha, then the laypeople could look to the Sangha for their teachings. And so, like I said before, you have to have monks, and the laypeople have to support the monks. And the monks have to be dedicated to right practice, and not just dedicated to learning the scriptures from the books, because Dhamma isn't words on a page, it's not books in a cabinet. Dhamma is here within us, within our being, within our body and mind. And if we want to read the Dharma, we just have to read our body and our mind, and we don't have to go far to do that. But if we can't, you know, you have to learn a little bit of Dharma, which is in the books first. But if you then spend all your time reading the books, you don't have enough time to actually read your being where the real Dharma is. Real Dharma is reading what's inside, not reading what's on a page.
[00:59:11] Speaker A: Right. I just want to wrap up with one more question. It's really a speculative question because no one really knows the answer, but do you think it's possible that, like, a forest tradition, which is back to basics, back to the roots of the practice tradition, could really get established in Western countries?
And if so, what really do we need to focus on? Whether we're lay people or whether ordain what do we need to focus on developing to make that kind of thing happen?
[00:59:50] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a difficult question to answer, to be honest, because I think we've almost come full circle back to Ajan Man and Ajan Sao. And I think what it would really take is it will really take a monk or two monks that take on that same sort of practice and that same sort of role, go through that same process and become enlightened themselves, and then let others see what that kind of practice can do.
It's by example, and I think that's very difficult these days to find because of the fact that in the west, the difference between today in the west and back then with Ajan Man is that wherever Ajan Man went, lay people will give him some food.
But going back to your point of generosity, there has to be that sort of ethos within the community that will allow monks to be ascetic or not not necessarily ascetic, but be more reclusive and still get support. So much so that they can develop their own practice and then when they finish that practice, become an example. It's all by example, really. You have to have people who are exemplars.
[01:01:23] Speaker A: So I'm going to take a positive spin on that. I'm going to say implicitly in your answer, and tell me if I'm wrong, is that you both need monastics who are really dedicated and going to try and give it their all and really stick to the good standards that were set by the Buddha. But also you need to have laypeople who are willing to support, I guess, what really are the heroes of Buddhism who are going to live in that way of it's quite an austere way of living, really.
So both of those things are needed.
That's what I'm taking for what you're saying is monastics who are absolutely dedicated, but also lay people who are willing to support them.
[01:02:13] Speaker B: Yes, because that's what the community is.
That's what a Buddhist community is. It's monks, nuns and people.
[01:02:25] Speaker A: Absolutely.
Look, I'm going to leave it there, Stephen. Look, I really enjoyed talking to you. I hope at some stage in the future we can talk again on a similar topic, but for the time being, I'm just going to leave it there and say thank you very much for giving your time and experience and knowledge about the Thai forest tradition.
[01:02:44] Speaker B: You're welcome.
[01:02:46] Speaker A: And thank you to all our listeners for joining us for this insightful episode of Treasure Mountain, in which Stephen Tawler, who was a biku in Thailand for seven years during the 1970s, shared his knowledge and experience of the Thai forest tradition. If you'd like to hear more of Stephen's talks, you can find links in the description below this podcast episode.
If you enjoy this podcast, I'd appreciate it if you could share this episode with your friends or other people who you think could benefit from its insights. Treasure Mountain podcast is part of the Everyday Dhamma Network. You can find out more about Treasure Mountain podcast by going to the link in the description below this episode. Or you can do a web search for Everyday Dharma Network. You can also find out on the Treasure Mountain Podcast website information about all previous episodes and guests, as well as transcriptions of our interviews.
If you go back to everydaydammer. Net to the homepage, you can discover more about the three other podcasts on the network and links to subscribe to any and all of them if you'd like to. I think you might like them, but tell me what you think by contacting me by the contact page on the website. I'd appreciate your feedback. I hope you will join us again on the next episode of Treasure Mound podcast as we seek for the treasure within.
